Curse

nebojats · Dec 09, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

To give credit where it's due, System_Crush has really helped out with this one. Most notably, he's contributed some awesome skills, helped tailor the Mannai's balance issues, and suggested sustained hexes (a great idea which he picked up from a long-lost thread at some point). http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...01#post2308201
BahamutKaiser really helped rewire the whole class. Most notably, the Mannai's parasitic snares now act as conduits through which enemy spellcasters can attack, the Mannai's primary attribute came to be, and camouflage is now defined as removing the red dot from the compass and making the Mannai difficult to see.

THE MANNAI

The Mannai is a skilled priestess of Melandru. Although powerful, she cannot rely upon brute force or her own magical ability. Instead, she depends upon symbiotic relations with others. Acting as a living conduit, the Mannai channels both damage and energy between her foes and allies. By capitalizing on organisms' inherent reciprocity, the Mannai reinforces the natural world’s interdependence.

The Mannai has 70 armor and deals midrange weapon damage similar to wands. Her energy is 30, but with four pips of regen (+2 from armor).

Vitality (Primary Attribute): For every four points in this attribute, you gain one energy for having a spell relayed through a snare and +1 energy regeneration.
Parasitism: Affects a variety of parasitic snares and hexes.
Sustenance: Affects spells which sustain allies' energy.
Adaptation: Affects stealth and self-assistance spells.

Strengths:

1) The Mannai lessens enemy spellcasters' effectiveness.
2) The Mannai extends ally spellcasters' range.
3) The Mannai maintains allies' energy with energy-restoration skills.
4) The Mannai camouflages, allowing her to walk the battlefield relatively unnoticed.
5) The Mannai multiplies the number of foes targeted by offensive spells.

Weakness:

1) The Mannai can be quickly killed and necessarily must expose herself to danger. Although it is fairly easy for her to initiate the parasitic process, it is much more difficult to maintain it without drawing undo attention from her host's allies.
2) The Mannai needs allies to take advantage of her parasitic snares. Otherwise, she has very little energy regeneration and isn’t useful.

Originality:

1) Introduces stealth to the game, which is unexplored as of yet.
2) Introduces sustained hexes (Parasitism skills).
3) Introduces a team-focusing attribute like parasitic snares.

HOW THE MANNAI WORKS IN BATTLE:

Phase I

Initially, the Mannai uses an Adaptation skill to conceal herself from the enemy's view. Being camouflaged means that the Mannai becomes difficult to see and her marker on the compass disappears.

Phase II

Now able to work unnoticed, the Mannai activates Parasitism snares and hexes...

A quick note on snares: To initiate a snare, the Mannai must be in the area. To maintain a snare, the Mannai must stay within the agro circle. Snares allow allies to target the Mannai, relaying offensive spells along her snares to ensnared opponents. Spells can be transmitted through up to three snares (at a cost of 40% spell cost to the Mannai’s energy stores for each snare).

Conceivably, having a cheap spell relayed through her snares could actually create energy for the Mannai; at a cost of 40% of a 5 energy spell (2 energy), and a benefit of 4 energy return for the relay, the Mannai could earn 2 energy points of energy off of each snare if she has maximum Vitality. At the same level of Vitality with 10 energy cost spells relaying through her snares, the Mannai would break even. Any spell with a higher cost would actually deplete energy from the Mannai’s mana bar.

Phase III

Using her new energy, the Mannai maintains allies' energy with Sustenance skills.

THE MANNAI'S SKILLS

Adaptation Skills

Predation - Elite Enchantment. For 5...25 seconds, you are camouflaged. While camouflaged, you move 20%...40% faster and snares cost half energy to cast and maintain. This enchantment ends if you attack or are attacked.

Silent Hunter – Elite Enchantment. For 5…25 seconds, you are camouflaged. This enchantment does not end if you attack or are attacked.

Camouflage - Enchantment. For 10...45 seconds, you are camouflaged. While camouflaged, you move 40...20% slower. This enchantment ends if you attack or are attacked.

Subterranean Shelter - Enchantment. While you maintain this enchantment, you suffer -5...-2 energy regeneration. You may not attack, use a skill, or be targeted.

Circle of Life - Spell. For each snare being maintained, you gain 2...5 energy.

Healing Sap - Spell. For each snare maintained, you gain 5...10 health.

Nurturing Web - Enchantment. For each snare maintained you gain +1 health regeneration for 5...10 seconds.

Parasitism Skills

Mana Leech - Snare. While you maintain this snare, you suffer one pip of energy degeneration and target foe’s spells cost 5…25% more. You steal this excess energy. If target foe leaves range, the snare ends. You lose 20…10 energy when this snare ends.

Debilitating Snare - Snare. While you maintain this snare, you suffer one pip of energy degeneration and steal one energy for each spell cast by target opponent. If target foe leaves range, the snare ends. You lose 5…1 energy when this snare ends.

Engorge - Hex. For 8...25 seconds, target foe's skills cost 5...25% more energy. You steal excess energy.

Sustenance Skills

Mana Support - Elite enchantment. While you maintain this enchantment, target ally benefits from +1 energy regeneration and you suffer from -1 energy degeneration. Every offensive spell used by that ally is relayed through your snares.

Ethereal Vine – Enchantment. While you maintain this enchantment, you suffer one pip of energy degeneration and every time a ensnared opponent uses a spell, target ally gains 5…20% of that spell’s energy cost.

Sustaining Drain – Enchantment. While you maintain this enchantment, ensnared opponents suffer one pip of energy degeneration. You suffer one pip of energy degeneration for each opponent affected. Target ally gains one pip of energy regeneration for each opponent affected.

Mana Boost - Spell. For each ensnared opponent, target ally gains 3...7 energy.

Crom The Pale · Dec 10, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

While I love the idea of sustained hexes, most of your skills seam to be taken from other classes.

Plague Carrier is only a little differnt from plague touch.
Weakened blood is the same as the ranger spirit, lacerations i believe its called.
Weak Immunity sounds very similar to weaken armor.
Sustaining breaze = blood ritual.
and as for increasing the cost of skills there are ranger spirits for that too, granted yours only targets one foe. Making it a little over powered.

Earshot range is way to far for this char, you could take return from assasin secondary and after casting your parasites move to safety behind your casters.

I've no problem with making your char untargetable, but dont remove red dot.
And you would still take damage from non targeted AoE skills. Untargtable is very much like other skills, all of which are elite I should add, Spell Breaker, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, Vow of Silence, Mist Form.

While you can take your class in anydirection you like, I would sugest focusing on the maintained hexes. Look at current hexes that have a very short duration or single time effect and expand on them, maybe move single targeting hexes to multi targets.

nebojats · Dec 10, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Hey Crom,

Quote:

I've no problem with making your char untargetable, but dont remove red dot.
And you would still take damage from non targeted AoE skills. Untargtable is very much like other skills, all of which are elite I should add, Spell Breaker, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form, Vow of Silence, Mist Form.

Thanks for the feedback. You could definitely be right about the camouflage. I think you misunderstood my definition though. I didn't say Camouflage makes the character untargetable. I said it makes them untargetable using keyboard shortcuts. The skills you compare it to have a completely different effect and are far more powerful than anything Camouflage has to offer. I'm not really sure what being "camouflaged" will detail in the end. It needs to give some sort of tactical advantage to the Metabolist, but not too much. Perhaps removing the red dot would be overpowered.

Quote:

Earshot range is way to far for this char, you could take return from assasin secondary and after casting your parasites move to safety behind your casters.

I agree with your assessment of the earshot range for the Parasitic hexes. I was hesitant when I wrote it, and your critique confirms my suspicion that it is too strong. A half-radius for the parasite hexes would be more appropriate. I'll make the adjustments.

Quote:

most of your skills seam to be taken from other classes

You could also be right about Predation skills. In fact, they are mostly touch hexes, and those have already been implemented in the game pretty intensely. That whole attribute can definitely be modified (it was in fact a sort of last minute affair, since I needed a fourth attribute, and I wasn't coming up with good ideas).

However, I've got to disagree with your critique about Sustaining Breeze. It doesn't equal Blood Ritual. If Sustaining Breeze equals Blood Ritual, then Healing Breeze equals Blood Bond, and that's obviously not true. The whole point of a Necromancer is that he sacrifices something to help his teammates (i.e. health). The Metabolist does not. The Metabolist does for energy what a Monk does for health. Sustenance is as different from Blood Magic as is Healing.

I also think you're wrong about Parasitism. The specific Ranger spirits you referred to are different from Parasitism in four major ways: Parasitism only targets one foe, it causes the caster energy degen, Parasitism is not on a fixed location on the map, and the Metabolist steals the excess energy. The similarity: they both raise energy costs of something for someone. Besides this general commonality, they're quite different.

Given what I've pointed out above, I assume that when you say most of my skills are stolen from preexisting skills, you essentially mean the Predation attribute. Three of the four examples of "stolen" skills are Predation skills, and I just explained above why Sustaining Breeze is not a copy of a Necro skill. Parasitism is completely original (an attribute devoted to stealing energy used by enemies with sustained hexes), so is Sustenance (an attribute completely devoted to restoring energy), as is Survival (the only attribute thus far that introduces stealth). Predation can definitely be revamped, maybe even replaced, though, so thanks for drawing my attention to that.

What I Plan to Do with your Feedback

1) Completely revamp the Predation attribute. You're right. Hexes have been overdone. I'm thinking that nontarget-based AoE damage spells might be a good replacement, but I'm not sure yet.
2) Possibly modify Camouflage's definition. It could be too powerful, you're right. I'm pretty sure that you misunderstood the skill, though. It doesn't mean that the Metabolist is untargetable, it would just be more difficult to do so.
3) Shorten Parasitism hexes' range. You're right, it's too long a range.
4) Do nothing to the Sustenance attribute. There is no energy monk thus far. The Metabolist fills that role. I think that as more skills are added besided Sustaining Breeze, this attribute's originality will become more obvious.

nebojats · Dec 10, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Well I implemented the changes except for revamping Predation. I still have to think on that one for a while...

Also, a new name: Mannai. It derives from the word manna (miraculous aid, divine nourishment), which is different from mana (supernatural power), but I'd like to think that both ideas can be wrapped into one.

BahamutKaiser · Dec 11, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

I think you kind of step out on a limb by assuming there is no energy monk in the game. Necromancer grants very strong energy support, and there are plenty of skills in the game which provide energy support for themselves.

Beyond that, there are plenty of energy sabatoge and destruction skills in the mesmer attribute. In reality, these skills are just a unique combination of exsisting capabilities.

That said, they can work. But you need to provide another function and ability to the class which is a little more original.

Best suggestion. "Borrow" Croms idea. I hear something about reflecting spells was mentioned recently, something like the ability to bounce spells from backline casters to enemies, a way of bridging distance to keep soft casters at a safe distance. What I didn't see was a functional way to do it.

Solution, A new function for Maintained hexes. Instead of offering heavy energy sabatoge, which can easily be overpowered, the maintained hexes could offer light energy sabatoge, at a set amount. The alteration, allow allies to target the Mannai wile he has a "Relay" active to an enemy, causing the spell to be "Repeated" onto the foe at a further distance.

In this way you provide your Mannai with a more potent role to compliment a less sigificant (and balanced) energy manipulation role. By maintaining Hexes on Foes at normal range, allies behind you can cast spells onto the Mannai which then get delivered to the hexed foe. As an additional bonus, the Mannai could maintain more than one link to several foes, and duplicate the spell damage relayed through him on more than one foe, at an additional cost.

Imagine this, The Mannai Relays 3 enemies, costing 5 energy and 1 maintenance each, he gains either an energy regenation steal, or energy based on a fraction of energy spent by the target. When an Allie elementist uses Fireball on his allie Mannai, the fireball is sent down all the channels, at the cost of 60% spell cost on each additional repeat. The first one is free, the elementist pays for it, but the second 2 relays of fireball cost 6 energy a piece (60% of 10 energy) out of the Mannai energy pool.

With this example, the Primary attribute can be altered to instead offer an energy reward for every spell relayed on him, 1 point of energy for every 4 points in his primary attribute. Cheap spells relayed through him could actually create energy for him, at a cost of 60% of a 5 energy spell, and 4 energy return for the relay, the Mannai could earn one energy if he has 16 points in his primary.

I'm not saying this is the only way to improve this idea, but I think it is the most appropriate. This class needs a handful of unique talents to make the cut, and at least one outstanding ability.

As for the Camoflauge bit, I would say choose one. Either it cannot be key targeted, or it cannot be seen on the minimap, not both. Personally, I think it is a sin to distort common key commands with an ability, your changing the gameplay interface. Players should be able to target the Mannai like normal, the camoflauge should offer near invisibility, and stealth to radar. The only way I would justify target reduction, or removal, is if they did something like Creatures do and bury themselves underground or hide in trees, making them completely untargetable. But if they granted status like that, they should lose all effects on enemies and allies and remove from play until they return.

This is only a little bit away from being one of the few classes I would actually approve of, not just working, but worthy of the game. Keep developing it and I am sure you will create a work of art.

Crom The Pale · Dec 11, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

You are right those skills are not exact coppies and the effects do differ in some significant ways.

As for your feeding energy to other players, doesnt there need to be more of a balance involved? I mean there is a real strong reason that necros must sacrifice health for blood is power.

As for Camouflage one idea I had would be to have it break a target lock if the attacking foe did not use a skill in 6..2 seconds.
So if say an elemental targets you and tries a 3 second cast when your attribute is maxed then after 2 seconds the lock fails and he fails to cast.

This could be huge even vs a war. He could target you and attack but while he is waiting the 4 sec for his skill to recharge he losses target lock, pressing C might have him target some other adjacent foe and youd escape.

Tieing this to your primary attribute would make sence and keep it out of secondary class abuse.

Like the name, Mannai!

nebojats · Dec 11, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Bahamut! Once again I think you added a magic touch! The concepts you have laid down are great, and combining Relay with Parasitism is a perfect match. Just so I'm not missing anything, let me real succinctly put down your points:

1) Change sustained hexes from being primarily energy-stealers to a sort of Relay channel with much more modest energy stealing.
2) Make the primary attribute convert magic cast onto the Mannai into energy, which she is rewarded.
3) Camouflage should just remove the red dot from the compass.

I know the points don’t to complete justice to your post, but those are the main ideas, right? If so, I’ve got to say they all sound perfect and I’ll implement them as soon as I get the chance. Tell me what you think as I incorporate your ideas. Maybe I’ll even work up the nerve to try making another piece of concept art… Thanks again for the helpful teamwork!

P.S. The burying-self idea is a must also.

nebojats · Dec 11, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I changed the primary attribute to only give the energy bonus to second and third symbiotic bonds, but not the first. I also changed Vitality's energy gaining option from 1...4 to 1...8. The reason I made these adjustments is because otherwise, the Mannai would always gain energy from relaying spells.

For instance, using the setup you had proposed, if the Mannai had her Vitality set at 16, she would gain 4 energy off of every relayed spell. That means that if she only relayed a five-energy spell through one bond, she would gain 4 energy. If she relayed that same spell through two bonds, she would gain 5 energy. If she relayed the spell through three bonds, she would gain 6 energy.

The way I have it set now, the Mannai needs multiple bonds to gain energy from relaying spells. With a Vitality of 16, the Mannai would gain 5 energy from the same spell while using two bonds. While controlling three, she would gain 10 energy from the same spell. The tradeoff is that the Mannai can now possibly gain more energy, but isn't able to easily gain energy from only one bond.

It still feels sort of awkward and I wonder if I just missed something. Thoughts?

System_Crush · Dec 11, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by nebojats

To give credit where it's due, System_Crush has really helped out with this one...
...and suggested sustained hexes (a great idea which should have already been incorporated into GW).

Unlike you said there, I have in the previous thread also said the idea wasn't originally mine.
It was first suggested nearly a year ago, in the Sardelac Sanitarium I believe, on a tread which I can't find anymore(possibly gone because of age)
Just to prevent later flaming.

Well the energy stealing will ofcource have to be balanced, though I definatly want to opt for enough energy controll to eliminate the Me/R as the only possible build for energy denier.

The skills for energy monking are in name sorta ripped off, this is something that makes my eyes hurt but as it is only a concept I'm not going to complain about it.

But the energy monking is indeed somewhat overpowered, and at the same time underpowered.
You can't seen when someone's energy is getting low, and therby will either use the skills too early and wast them or to late when someone writes a message in the chat.

Just like a with necro I think it might be a good idea to give the person needing energy some controll over it, for instance mages in need of energy just move into my BloodFountain's well of power whenever they need energy(this however requires them to leave the safe backline to stand near it)

I think that you could easely make a enechanment that allows teammates to channel energy through you like chanelling spells toward the energy, you could also channel energy from a foe to your allies through sustained enchantments.

Etheral Vine
enchantment
energy 10 -1reg activation 2 recharge 15
While you maintain this enchantment on target (other{not sure yet}) ally, that ally gains 8...15...18% of the energy cost every time a foe connected to you casts a spell.

That way information factor(in other words teamspeak requirement) is removed from energy monking and makes it less of a coppy .
I don't think spells should chain down Mannai enchantments because that would mean all Mannai hexes and enchantments are connectors, I do not think thats desirable.

Thusly if not all sustaineds connect you need some indicator of when you are connected.
If you are going to connect to foes you should have some indication of this in the skills, so that someone can see in the acive effect bar that there is a Mannai buggin him.

That way not all sustained hexes would be connectors, and this allows them to be a little more powefull

Ether Root
Hex
energy 20 -1reg activation 1.5 recharge 12
While you maintain this hex on target foe, you are <connected>(did you make a name for the effect yet?) to that foe.
And skills used by that target foe targeting that foe, have their effects reduced by -1 level in their attribute, and cost 5...15...20% less the base energy, if energy is spared this way you gain that ammount of energy.
If no energy is spared this when this happens you lose 2 energy.

The above is not only a example of a way to inform someone he's been connecte, but also a subtle hint to a way to make connecting unspammable,
on a warrior this would actually lose you energy instead of gain you, because signets and adrenal shouts do not return any energy, because they cost no energy and you lose 2 energy when you fail to return energy form a skill used by target foe targeting that foe(cast on self).
A paragon would also lose you energy but less, because each energy shout returns energy to you(5 energy at 10% is gain 1 energy, because rounded up) but everytime they use a adrenal shouts you lose energy and evertime a echo or refrain refeshed itself you also lose energy.
From a ranger you would get energy each time they use a preperation or defencive skill(troll ungent, lighting reflexes and so on), beast attacks only affect your critter but are targeted against self odly enough.
On a monk this would also work nicely unless they where using some skill that reduces energy cost, this also loses you energy.

That way a Mannai would really have to think on what hex to put on what foe, and not just spam 1 or 2 good ones to gain lots of energy and act all uber, they would specifically have energy steals for certain foes, but could only take a few (8 skill slots and you need at least 4 slots for other skills) their other skills could be either to focus on energy denial or on support.

Before I said their enchantments should not be connecting, though if they can channel hexes to multiple foes they might also channel enchantments to allies, this could how ever be done with special sustained echantments that have verry litle effect other then reducing the effect of the hostile spells and hexes channeld from the Mannai to his party members.
Though that seems harder to balance and is probably not the best idea, it is a possiblity though.

by the way good name.

LightningHell · Dec 11, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

So this class is more based on sustaining others, from what I see. Would really like this to be extended more.

On another note, if maintained hexes are praised here, why does no one look at mine? /grumble...

nebojats · Dec 12, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Hey System_Crush,

Great to hear back from you on the continous evolution of the Mannai. I think that you're right; the new concept with the bonds is great and all, but it is leaving some of its energy denier abilities behind (and that was an idea which I really enjoyed). I think I understand your suggestions, but I'd like to succinctly restate them like I did above with Bahamut's ideas. Doing so really helps me figure out the critiques for myself and makes them easier to incorporate. Also, this way you can tell me if I missed anything from your post.

1) Redo the Sustenance attribute. The current skills are too similar to Monk Healing skills. Create bonds with allies that transfer energy from connected foes in a variety of ways. That fits in better with the concept.
2) Create sustained hexes which don't act as range-extenders for your ally spellcasters. This gives greater variety to sustained hexes and allows for more specific strategies in different situations

I think you're right about the Sustenance attribute. It is a rip-off of Healing skills. Incorporating some enchantments which restore allies' energy and are dependent upon sustained hexes with opponents could be a good idea. I also do like the idea of creating some more energy denial sustained hexes. That would offer more debuffing variety. I'll try to incorporate your suggestions and see how people react (the more minds, the better). Tell me what you think and thanks for the help.

Hey LightningHell,

Yeah, sustaining others' energy and focusing allies attacks through symbiotic bonds/sustained hexes (or whatever they'll be called in the end). I'm still looking for feedback and the Mannai is changing every day. I'm trying to really stabilize the concept before I start adding skills.

P.S. That's too bad your maintained hex character didn't get any notice. Not many people here care about other peoples' input or collaboration, just getting their name on a hot idea. Case in point: the "Channeler" class that just got posted (dear lord that is the most blatant "homage" I've seen on these forums for some time).

BahamutKaiser · Dec 12, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Actually on second thought, it might be bad to have the relay cost only for additional spells. First off, the primary that only activates with relays is already very secluded, if it only activates on multiple relays, it would be worthless in many situations.

Perhaps the Mannai should incure 100%-40% of the cost of the spell for every relay, including the initial one. And gain up to 4 energy for each relayed spell. For instance, if you relay 3 foes, your suffering from 3 energy maintenance already, and the minimum cost of the allies spell is going to be 5 energy. If you pay a minimum of 2 energy, for each repeat of the spell, on 3 lines, you lose 6 energy, and gain a maximum of 4 energy for 3 lines, which is 12. On cheap relays, you can gain energy, but on 10 energy spells it would break even, and on 15 or 25 energy spells it would cost you.

I think that is important because a primary that only kicks in when your using at least 2 links of a particular move is very situational. It should be useful even in the least of uses with this ability.

This can actually work in a great variation of ways, so additional brainstorming is definetly required. Normally you don't see this side of me because I do all the developement an brainstorming before I even start an idea, but it could take some time to come up with a best possible function.

As for a general status, if the class is ment to be a relay, it should naturally have a little better defense than the people he is relaying for, a likely 70, and if it is maintenance extensive than 2 energy regeneration should be provided on the armor for a common 4 energy regeneration that way it can sustain 2 or 3 lines without going into energy depervation.

Also, it should definetly incorperate some of Monks techniques like the ability to boost your energy depending on how many lines your maintaining, and as a common function for the class, its main healing skills should probably multiply based on the number of lines it is maintaining.

Also, if the primary attribute only boosts in effect every 4 levels, it should provide an additional effect simular to Mystisism, but health and energy is definetly a repeat. Also there are other primary options, like additional energy regeneration instead of link bonuses. With 1 carrot of energy regeneration per 4 levels it could rely on its higher energy regen to maintain multiple lines without being a spam freak like Bonding Monks.

Also, the proper term for energy Monk is Energy Support. If this class has Energy support skills they should probably lie in another attribute, and they could include maintained enchantments which feed energy to allies, and actual direct energy boosts by amount, which is currently unavailable. Even better still, they could offer enchantments which reduce the cost or return energy when allies use certain skills.

As for the range, it should definetly be a little more than the danger zone. A simple counter to this sort of ability is to run away. I think it would be best if they had a range 50% further than the danger zone, and activate at a distance half of the danger zone. This way, if you link the enemy, they have to run a full danger zone to escape, you don't have to put an unarmored unit directly in melee combat, only close.

Than you can get creative, with options like an Elite Energy Support link which offers 1 energy regeneration to an allie for the cost of 1 energy maintenance, and repeats all spells casted by that allie to all maintained offensive links every time that allie casts a spell (not through you, but at all).

The linking abilities can become very overpowered very quickly, especially when your talking about replicating meteor shower 3 times on 3 foes adjacent to eachother. So alot of consideration and developement needs to be added to the actual cost and output of these abilities, but overall, the general idea is very appealing, and with enough work, a balanced solution can be obtained.

nebojats · Dec 12, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Alright, great suggestions. At this point, I'm becoming more of an idea organizer rather than a creator, but I really like that. Collaborative effort is the best way we can come up with a class that is appealing to many types of players.

As usual, let me reduce your suggestions into neat bulltet points for clarity and to help me incorporate them into the Mannai.

1) Make Vitality gain energy from all relays, not just the second and third bond. To balance this advantage out, make the Mannai incur a penalty for relaying spells through her bonds. I think 40% is the best option, because it allows for gains and losses; at 5 energy cost, the Mannai gains energy, at 10 energy cost, the Mannai stays even, and at 15 and above, the Mannai loses energy when transmitting.

2) The Mannai should have better defense (70).

3) The Mannai should have average energy regeneration of +4 (+2 from armor).

4) Incorporate self-support which is based on the number of bonds.

5) Give Vitality an additional benefit (similar to Mysticism)

6) You offer a few rough ideas for Energy Support skills.

7) Give bonds longer range (both to activate and maintain).

If what I wrote is accurate, then those ideas all seem great to me. The suggestions really round out the concept into a full-fledged class. You're right that the biggest challenge to the Mannai will be balance. With such a complicated system that is so dependent upon situational specifics, it will be hard to figure out what exactly is balanced without actually playing the darn thing. Maybe some day that can happen. Most likely it will stay in our heads though...

BahamutKaiser · Dec 12, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Stop organizing and start contributing :P

And don't put that in a bullet point!

nebojats · Dec 12, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I will, I will, I will. I think that the Mannai is up to snuff now in terms of being a fairly well-rounded character with a solid concept and well-established role.

Now that that's settled, I'll get to adding some depth and subtlety.

Dean Harper · Dec 13, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

i was thinking of adding a different weapon, such as a bladed boomerang, and adding a boomerang mastery line or something. However, it may not fit in with the rest of the skills. otherwise, great idea, id DEFINETALLY play it if it came out nice work!!!!

-Dean

P.S. can you also give some idea of how long the recharge, cast and how mcuh energy these skills will cost??? Thx

BahamutKaiser · Dec 13, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

I would stay away from skill examples and technicals unless it is completely neccessary to explain the skill. Reason being, it is very hard to design and balance a skills power and cost without testing it and trying all the combinations and situations it could play in. If you start making a bunch of broken skill ideas than the thread starts to revolve around whether a certain few skills are balanced rather than the new kinds of abilities and class identities we have to offer.

Naturally, that goes nowhere, because Anet is not going to copy our skill lists and put them into the game, they will likely draw ideas based on general concepts and abilities and apply them in their own way.

Perfect example is Paragon, straight out of the suggestion forums. Alot of people kept bringing up bard ideas and commander ideas, and I told them a bard is not combat oriented enough and a Warrior Priest who sings war songs would be more reasonable. Alot of Commander, Group Buffer, and spear throwing or melee spear came out and by the next expansion we have Paragon, a combination of related and reasonable capabilities many people agreed on.

Assassin, also a very popular subject before factions came out, with a new Rouge, Ninja, or Assassin suggestion every week. Anet choose a popular icon from the community and developed original abilities mixed in with a few player suggestion. That is as close as our suggestions are going to influence Anet without getting hired there. Even if you make a perfect idea, Anet is only going to be inspired by it, they arn't going to copy.

That is why I usually avoid skill lists, and I often remind people that the dedication I put into my class ideas is for my own creative outlet and I correct falsehoods out of zeal, not because the idea needs to be perfect or people need to realize it.

Truth is, we could juggle this concept til chapter 4 comes out and not find a balanced solution, best effort would be to post your favorite 3 ways you think it would work best, or just the one way that you work on the most and just side note alternatives, and turn your focus on the kind of identity you want this class to portray, or developing more original abilities and skill types.

actionjack · Dec 15, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Granted "skills ideas" (new mechanics and such) are more important than list of skill examples in a CC, skill examples does server a more functional way on how such thing migh be apply in use in-game. Also it help to illustrat a mental picture of how such thing would be play and balance, as well as show how that concept is possible within the rule and spec of the game. In addition, as you make "mock" skills around your concept, you would start to get more sense as to what could be its weakness and strength, and ideas for additional skills that would support this core idea would start to flow in.
Thus I encourage some list of skill examples (should atleast 4 per attribute).

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In Mannai... (what does it mean?)
While its a good support/debuff class, would still recomand adding few offenisve line of skills. Rest look good, and I like the snars.

System_Crush · Dec 15, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I agree(@ actionjack)
Balance is not an issue it's a opportunity, balancing a attribute to be slow and powerful or quick and dirty is a great way to steer a class in a certain direction.

BahamutKaiser · Dec 16, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

You can make skills which will not be chosen at all and most certainly will require balance and originality on the developers part, or you can make several descriptions about what you would like and hope the developers choose those features and make it work. Some skill examples help illustrate the general features of the class, some skill examples are not a list. A list is just a waste of effort which will go mostly overlooked, an likely assure that the developers don't use that idea in the avoidance of claim and originality.

As I have said, the most important part of a concept is the identity, function, and originality, trying to speculate and define the actual balance of skills outside of testing is a certain failure. But if you want your idea to be about helping players understand the idea rather than offering something to the developers, go ahead and list.